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Offline jostber  
#1 Posted : 07 January 2013 19:37:55(UTC)
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Offline Martin Colloms  
#2 Posted : 08 January 2013 18:43:18(UTC)
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ouch !

these things are expensive $750 for a pair of speaker terminal terminators , and if bi wired you need two sets

Stein have an extensive range of products but I would prefer some more technical detail on their product pages

It all rather enigmatic , not even a spec. for their phono stage, that could be easily be reproduced ?

As for those rose quartz crystals, and bottling their behaviour on an acoustic space, in a powered piece of electronics.....

............I have no explanations


But there are apparently weird effects

blind , under good conditions it is possible to hear the temporary and subtle effect of static electricity removal from a loudspeaker system.

The effect wears off after a few minutes , depending on humidity and requires frequent renewal. the natural uneven charges are believed to slightly perturb the radiated sound pressure wave fronts.

Negative ions lay dust and excess charge and help clear the nasal passages , which for many translates into slightly clearer and more relaxed sound reproduction.

You can use a ion generator and/or have a few large potted plants in the room.

Martin Colloms
Offline jostber  
#3 Posted : 09 January 2013 14:58:25(UTC)
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This review is a bit more detailed on how these are meant to work, and with some feedback from the designer:

http://www.inner-magazin...r-Match-DE2-Conditioner/


Offline jostber  
#4 Posted : 09 January 2013 18:22:16(UTC)
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The first reviewer mentions that the Speaker Matches reduces EMF between the speakers and the amplifier, but is it EMI, i.e. Electromagnetic Intereference that he means? Guess that would be also dependent on cable type, connectors on amp and speakers and if the circuits in the amp and/or speakers are shielded in some way?

Offline kengale  
#5 Posted : 09 January 2013 18:53:35(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: jostber Go to Quoted Post



God, what a load of twaddle! "A real upgrade over the original and effective Speaker Matches comes with the arrival of the more elegant and expensive Speaker Match Plus…one that is definitely better than the original! Eliminating EMF would have major benefits in improving your amplifier’s control of the speaker drivers, and would result in a dramatic improvement in definition and lower noise." It is the speaker back emf that causes the impedance changes to follow the mechanical resonances, and enables the amplifier to control them. Eliminate the back emf and you eliminate any control the amplifier might have over these resonances - precisely the opposite of what they claim. And it's impossible anyway - the devices are in parallel across the speakers, and there's nothing you can do to make the currents from the emf's preferentially go through the devices while non-emf-caused ones go through to the amplifier.

I notice also that Jack ByBee's name crops up - virtually a guarantee of meaningless techno-babble. And in a Stereophile blog they are defended by May Belt: need I say more?
Offline jostber  
#6 Posted : 09 January 2013 20:26:19(UTC)
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Here is another challenge for the mind, H2 Harmonizers:

http://www.enjoythemusic...onizers_magic_stones.htm
http://www.positive-feed...m/Issue59/harmonizer.htm

They certainly get the reviewers jumping at it though.

Edited by user 09 January 2013 20:43:48(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Offline Shadders  
#7 Posted : 09 January 2013 22:03:24(UTC)
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Hi,

Ok- daft comment following.

I looked at the picture and text - is this just a bit of wood with wires protruding from it ?.

Has anyone taken the device apart and found out how it is constructed ?

Regards,

Shadders.
Offline jostber  
#8 Posted : 10 January 2013 10:03:19(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Shadders Go to Quoted Post
Hi,

Ok- daft comment following.

I looked at the picture and text - is this just a bit of wood with wires protruding from it ?.

Has anyone taken the device apart and found out how it is constructed ?

Regards,

Shadders.


From the Innerworld Audio link:

For the Speaker Match we're using a combination of a special casting compound that is optimized with regard to its sonic properties, together with a cardboard housing that is soaked with a special resonance optimizing lacquer. The casting compound ensures that all surfaces of the components are completely encased, the treated cardboard provides a good outer surface. The quality of the outer surface is very important, as it is this surface from where all internal resonances are reflected back into the material. So the character of the surface always has a big impact onto the overall resonance pattern.

Offline kengale  
#9 Posted : 10 January 2013 16:06:07(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: jostber Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Shadders Go to Quoted Post
Hi,

Ok- daft comment following.

I looked at the picture and text - is this just a bit of wood with wires protruding from it ?.

Has anyone taken the device apart and found out how it is constructed ?

Regards,

Shadders.


From the Innerworld Audio link:

For the Speaker Match we're using a combination of a special casting compound that is optimized with regard to its sonic properties, together with a cardboard housing that is soaked with a special resonance optimizing lacquer. The casting compound ensures that all surfaces of the components are completely encased, the treated cardboard provides a good outer surface. The quality of the outer surface is very important, as it is this surface from where all internal resonances are reflected back into the material. So the character of the surface always has a big impact onto the overall resonance pattern.




"The PDF Steinmusic manual for the Harmonizers describes their function as "elongating the air molecules" – i.e. "charging" the air in the listening room in a manner that facilitates the transmission of musical energy through the room. It seems to be suggesting that this charging of the air molecules means that when the speaker output enters the listening room space it does not have to overcome the inertia of uncharged/un-elongated air in the room."

Anyone any idea what this means? Anyone tried changing the shape of a molecule? I wonder if it is the oxygen molecules or nitrogen molecules they are trying to change - or perhaps they think air is a compound rather than a mixture.


Offline Pete_w  
#10 Posted : 10 January 2013 22:06:17(UTC)
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Crying Well, if you believe all that, then I have a load of homeopathic remedies here that you might like to try. It's the water molecules, see? They have memory, and the more you dilute them then the stronger the remedy becomes.

Quick, someone, phone Ben Goldacre, he'll love 'em...
Offline kengale  
#11 Posted : 10 January 2013 22:17:43(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Pete_w Go to Quoted Post
Crying Well, if you believe all that, then I have a load of homeopathic remedies here that you might like to try. It's the water molecules, see? They have memory, and the more you dilute them then the stronger the remedy becomes.

Quick, someone, phone Ben Goldacre, he'll love 'em...


Ben Goldacre - my hero!

Offline jostber  
#12 Posted : 10 January 2013 22:34:32(UTC)
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More on the Harmonizers:

http://www.inner-magazin.../Steinmusic-Harmonizers/

Cool quote:

Inside the Harmonizers one can find a small plastic casted black box that cannot be broken. Only Holger Stein knows what's inside them, and he won't tell..

http://www.stereotimes.com/comm040510.shtml

Edited by user 10 January 2013 22:39:59(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Offline kengale  
#13 Posted : 10 January 2013 22:43:17(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: jostber Go to Quoted Post
More on the Harmonizers:

http://www.inner-magazin.../Steinmusic-Harmonizers/

Cool quote:

Inside the Harmonizers one can find a small plastic casted black box that cannot be broken. Only Holger Stein knows what's inside them, and he won't tell..

http://www.stereotimes.com/comm040510.shtml


Madder and madder! I loved "The E-Pads work at molecular level on any material they are applied to." Sounds like I could have skipped an awful lot of my college courses and just read it up from Mr Stein.

And I loved "The H2 stimulates the oxygen's molecules in a way that improves its viscosity thus allowing it act much more effectively." The info that arrived with the H2 reads, in part, "The basic principle is similar to a catalyser. Technically it works with capacitively activated crystals. The air molecules inside of the listening room are jogged through the loudspeaker and thus transmit the sound information. In order to elongate the air molecules from their rest position it is necessary to spend energy first. It is much easier to move them if once moving. This phenomenon is similar to static and dynamic friction. To force a heavy piece of rock to move is not an easy task. But if it is once moving it can be much easier shifted further. The Steinmusic Harmonizer is working very similar, but rather at a level of ethereal states...." Truly mad.

Edited by user 10 January 2013 22:47:48(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Offline jostber  
#14 Posted : 10 January 2013 22:46:21(UTC)
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He seems to have a magic effect on the testers:

http://www.lafolia.com/a...ton201112steinmusic.html

Offline jostber  
#15 Posted : 10 January 2013 23:38:33(UTC)
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Offline Martin Colloms  
#16 Posted : 11 January 2013 11:00:43(UTC)
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some of these devices come with a dose of incorporated wishful thinking

Reviewers have been known to imagine the improvement almost before the device is connected

Zapperators can be quite subtle and several A/B trials were necessary with some cables to confirm that there was an effect and that it was positive.

These trials were single blind and our team sometimes enjoys trying to catch listeners out. It keeps them sharp.

The key is to have some null changes and check consistency.

fiddling round the back of a speaker makes this easy.

And Russ seems not to use snake oil, the Zapperators come from some seriously experienced and qualified scientists with an clear purpose to try and control RFI.

Martin Colloms
Offline kengale  
#17 Posted : 11 January 2013 13:11:48(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Martin Colloms Go to Quoted Post
some of these devices come with a dose of incorporated wishful thinking

Reviewers have been known to imagine the improvement almost before the device is connected

Zapperators can be quite subtle and several A/B trials were necessary with some cables to confirm that there was an effect and that it was positive.

These trials were single blind and our team sometimes enjoys trying to catch listeners out. It keeps them sharp.

The key is to have some null changes and check consistency.

fiddling round the back of a speaker makes this easy.

And Russ seems not to use snake oil, the Zapperators come from some seriously experienced and qualified scientists with an clear purpose to try and control RFI.

Martin Colloms



Zapperators are nothing more than a simple Zobel network across the speaker - trouble is that this should be matched to the characteristic impedance of the cable used, which will be entirely different from make to make and model to model of cable. And no number of seriously experienced and qualified scientists can change this. Though I do find the thought of a dedicated team of scientists working for Russ Andrews slightly hilarious.

If you really want to control RFI from speakers, the vast majority of this is common mode, with the length of the cable plus the speaker's internal wiring acting as an aerial. Common-mode chokes at the amplifier end are the answer to this. There is very little differential-mode pick up between wires, which is the only thing a zapperator could affect.

The real trouble is the Hifi convention of just having arbitrary lengths of wire without proper termination at either end. A speaker cable should be treated as a component in its own right, with a properly matched common-mode choke at the amplifier end and possibly a Zobel network at the speaker end, matched to the cable's characteristic impedance. These bits would cost peanuts compared to the ridiculous prices for the completely arbitrary add-on bits peddled at the moment.

This is a field in which I have a lot of experience, including current. Most products I am involved with have large transmit transducers, often on the end of long leads, driven by power amplifiers ranging from 50W to 60kW, and in the same bit of kit an array of extremely low noise receive amplifiers, digging out signals below the thermal noise of the receivers and the sea. Most boats have lots of other kit as well, also transmitting loads of RFI, both airborne and seaborne. Believe me, if we could cure problems by just hanging a "zapperator" on the transducer end of out transmit cables we would do it.
Offline ashleym  
#18 Posted : 11 January 2013 13:31:57(UTC)
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Quote:

Zapperators are nothing more than a simple Zobel network across the speaker - trouble is that this should be matched to the characteristic impedance of the cable used, which will be entirely different from make to make and model to model of cable. And no number of seriously experienced and qualified scientists can change this. Though I do find the thought of a dedicated team of scientists working for Russ Andrews slightly hilarious.

If you really want to control RFI from speakers, the vast majority of this is common mode, with the length of the cable plus the speaker's internal wiring acting as an aerial. Common-mode chokes at the amplifier end are the answer to this. There is very little differential-mode pick up between wires, which is the only thing a zapperator could affect.

The real trouble is the Hifi convention of just having arbitrary lengths of wire without proper termination at either end. A speaker cable should be treated as a component in its own right, with a properly matched common-mode choke at the amplifier end and possibly a Zobel network at the speaker end, matched to the cable's characteristic impedance. These bits would cost peanuts compared to the ridiculous prices for the completely arbitrary add-on bits peddled at the moment.

This is a field in which I have a lot of experience, including current. Most products I am involved with have large transmit transducers, often on the end of long leads, driven by power amplifiers ranging from 50W to 60kW, and in the same bit of kit an array of extremely low noise receive amplifiers, digging out signals below the thermal noise of the receivers and the sea. Most boats have lots of other kit as well, also transmitting loads of RFI, both airborne and seaborne. Believe me, if we could cure problems by just hanging a "zapperator" on the transducer end of out transmit cables we would do it.


RA does tell us Zapperators are Zobel networks. Only you mention a "dedicated team" of scientists. My Naim amps have a minimum of 3m of NACA5 cable and this provides the inductance required rather than having the choke in the amplifier box- but I am happy to hear how effective you think this solution is as I have no expertise here. So people in hi-fi do take this seriously. From the data sheets produced by RA I dont think he is recommending Zapperators for sonar and, you are right, they probably wont be effective in this environment. However they might be more effective on a domestic hi-fi. Borrow a set and have a listen, RA does a money back return offer.

Dont forget these too, reviewed in a recent issue of the Critic

DNM

Zaspperator stuff

edit- just reread and I dont like my tone. I am not meaning to come across as curt to you Ken. DO these helpFlapper Flapper Flapper Flapper ?

Edited by user 11 January 2013 15:22:08(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Offline kengale  
#19 Posted : 11 January 2013 19:16:07(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: ashleym Go to Quoted Post
Quote:

Zapperators are nothing more than a simple Zobel network across the speaker - trouble is that this should be matched to the characteristic impedance of the cable used, which will be entirely different from make to make and model to model of cable. And no number of seriously experienced and qualified scientists can change this. Though I do find the thought of a dedicated team of scientists working for Russ Andrews slightly hilarious.

If you really want to control RFI from speakers, the vast majority of this is common mode, with the length of the cable plus the speaker's internal wiring acting as an aerial. Common-mode chokes at the amplifier end are the answer to this. There is very little differential-mode pick up between wires, which is the only thing a zapperator could affect.

The real trouble is the Hifi convention of just having arbitrary lengths of wire without proper termination at either end. A speaker cable should be treated as a component in its own right, with a properly matched common-mode choke at the amplifier end and possibly a Zobel network at the speaker end, matched to the cable's characteristic impedance. These bits would cost peanuts compared to the ridiculous prices for the completely arbitrary add-on bits peddled at the moment.

This is a field in which I have a lot of experience, including current. Most products I am involved with have large transmit transducers, often on the end of long leads, driven by power amplifiers ranging from 50W to 60kW, and in the same bit of kit an array of extremely low noise receive amplifiers, digging out signals below the thermal noise of the receivers and the sea. Most boats have lots of other kit as well, also transmitting loads of RFI, both airborne and seaborne. Believe me, if we could cure problems by just hanging a "zapperator" on the transducer end of out transmit cables we would do it.


My Naim amps have a minimum of 3m of NACA5 cable and this provides the inductance required rather than having the choke in the amplifier box- but I am happy to hear how effective you think this solution is as I have no expertise here.


It just doesn't work like that. It's the 3m of cable, plus the bits of wiring in the speaker, that act as the aerial. The common-mode inductance needs to be in series with this aerial, and be dimensionally as small as possible compared with this length of aerial. Remember we're talking about common-mode pickup, not differential mode. Differential-mode inductance, such as provided by the loop formed by the cable and speaker, may be necessary to keep the amplifier stable if it's not properly designed. They're different problems which require different solutions.

Offline hifistan  
#20 Posted : 11 January 2013 19:34:45(UTC)
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I have a pair of the Harmonix [sp. ?] ones which were only around $100. I have tried them several times with uncertain results; not sure exactly how they are suppose to work. Price is cheap considering they also offer a $3,000 record weight. Will give then another try; they also have one that plugs into your AC line and is suppose to reduce junk on the line. I have a pair of these also but haven't been able to detect a difference; am using a PPP which makes a considerable difference to my ear.
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