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Switched Mode Power Supplies - the myths
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Switched Mode Power Supplies - the myths
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Togil
#1
Posted :
16 May 2012 06:37:05(UTC)
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I wondered if Critic could more seriously address the technologies behind various forms of Switched Mode Power Supplies , rather than blaming every ill in a system on that technology lurking everywhere in the house.
According to the literature I found in the Devialet room in Munich, the Devialet produces LESS noise in the mains than a linear supply.
Hans
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Pete_w
#2
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16 May 2012 07:39:38(UTC)
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I'd love to see such an article, but my understanding is that it's a very specialist subject, Paul & Martin would probably have to commission a designer working in the field to write it. Wikipedia has some
background
.
My encounters with buck regs (one species of SMPS) have been restricted to small low-current implementations, doing DC/DC from (say) 4V down to 1.3V, switching at 4MHz; even those are bizarre enough, I've sat through several impromptu lectures about how the ground currents are flowing where you least expect them, and whole sections of circuit are biased negative because of currents flowing in inductors... :-).
I get the impression that they can be done well, but don't forget that the Devialet has a pretty much unrestricted BOM (Bill Of Materials) cost, whereas a phone charger BOM will be strictly restricted to some tens of cents, and assembled in China, so it's a whole different ball-game in terms of performance and emissions.
Of course, as Ken will say, we really ought not to be designing hifi kit that's susceptible to crap on the mains...
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sandyk
#3
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16 May 2012 07:42:55(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Togil
I wondered if Critic could more seriously address the technologies behind various forms of Switched Mode Power Supplies , rather than blaming every ill in a system on that technology lurking everywhere in the house.
According to the literature I found in the Devialet room in Munich, the Devialet produces LESS noise in the mains than a linear supply.
Hans
Of more concern to me is the residual A.C. from case to earth, of equipment using SMPS supplies, due to the obligatory small value, high voltage capacitor(s) between the primary and secondary sides of the SMPS. This can range between 80V AC and 120V AC with various brands of DVD players,or STBs for example.This can result in a nasty little bite, even when the player is not switched on, when you unplug a lead to an earthed preamp or power amp, or plug them back in. It's even worse with a preamp with multiple inputs,when there are several SMPS devices plugged in and you unplug or plug in the interconnects to the power amplifier. The effects are additive, and the "bite" can be quite painful.
If that isn't enough , the S/N performance of the source devices using SMPS is degraded. With my own preamp,
I also switch the earth side of the inputs to help reduce this degradation.It's not unusual with SMPS devices to rub a finger across the case of an SMPS powered device and feel a tingle or vibration.
Regards
Alex
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Martin Colloms
#4
Posted :
16 May 2012 07:48:21(UTC)
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This is very complex subject, as is cable
What level and complexity of interference , modulation , bandwidth, spectral density, affects the effect, while the the effect also depends on the susceptibility of the equipment.
Susceptibility is often defined as measurable impairment ie audible noise or incorrect operation of controls but the more subtle losses in sound quality occur at much lower levels and may not be measured directly.
Gear which has been treated to be resistant often has poorer sound quality, and may be so poor that it does not matter whether it is resistant or not, you could not hear the impairment anyway.
Conventional supplies do interfere but at lower levels and over a much smaller bandwidth, and we have had years to make good sound despite its problems.
S/M fixes some problems but introduces others. Very few linear amplifiers use S/M supplies, while some Class D switchers are improved by using linear supplies with them.
I cannot easily review a high end sub woofer since once plugged in their typical S/M 1kW amplifier corrupts my system before I start to make the audio connections.
Those less interested in the more subtle qualities in reproduced audio find most S/M supplies satisfactory and good luck to them.
That is not so say that it cannot be done, and I note that have not experienced the Devialet in my system.
MartinC
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IanG-UK
#5
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16 May 2012 14:07:53(UTC)
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This article may be relevant (though being technically pretty incompetent I'm not sure):
http://www.6moons.com/au...views/bluehorizon/1.html
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alexh
#6
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16 May 2012 16:10:57(UTC)
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We have a dimming table lamp / clock that will stop working if I plug either a shaver charger, lap top charger or a phone charger into the shared extension block. They all use SMPS.
I am going around the house fitting Spike and RFI filter sockets
Alex H
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malteser
#7
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16 May 2012 16:45:00(UTC)
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Yes, I'd love to see something on this subject. It bothers me. SMPSs are far more efficient and so the way of the future. Eventually, the likes of Naim, Krell etc will all have to go down the SMPS route and in order to do so they'll need to develop ones that are immune to the extra noise and which still perform adequately, or even better than their current linear supplies.
Somewhat weirder, I have a friend who applied a linear power supply to his brand new Sinology 212 NAS, and this seemed to improve the general sound substantially. He then applied a linear supply to his gigabit switch and the sound improved again, if only by a small amount.
Regards,
Frank.
All opinions are my own and do not reflect the opinion of any organisations I work for, except where this is stated explicitly.
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sandyk
#8
Posted :
16 May 2012 23:42:28(UTC)
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I have a copy of an article about DVD players with both SMPS and Linear PSUs,
as well as the results when an external Linear PSU is substituted for the internal SMPS.
Feel free to email me if you are interested, and I will reply with the copy. (6.23MB)
Regards
Alex
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hifistan
#9
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17 May 2012 02:17:32(UTC)
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There is a crop of new Class D amps here in the states; the promised reductions in size and price seem to have disappeared. I am thinking of amps like Rowland, Levinson, etc. Perhaps a certain level of cost and size is necessary for top performance. Possibly this will be true of power supplies as well.
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Togil
#10
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17 May 2012 07:20:43(UTC)
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I wonder if the noise from a linear supply which I understand is in the 100 ( or 120 ) Hz region, as so often happens, adds a pleasant coloration ?
Hans
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Pete_w
#11
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17 May 2012 09:58:31(UTC)
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Everything produces noise. Linear power supplies are going to ripple at mains frequencies, yes, and if they have Schottky diodes in them which aren't perfectly "snubbed", then they're going to produce short bursts of RF as well.
I think, probably, that what makes all this quite hard is that we insist on buying bits of hifi that come in separate, separately powered boxes, and connecting them together with all sorts of various bits of electric string, where every input or output is connected, via this unknown string, to a port on another box with unknown characteristics.
Now compare with the all-in-one approach of Devialet (since they were mentioned above). He's got his digital inputs at one end, which he should be able to heavily filter and isolate himself from, and they've got the power amp output terminals at the other end. And in between he has complete control, and it even looks like he has access to a decent CNC machine and (in his low volume) I assume that he can machine out nice RF-tight sections within his case. It makes it a lot, lot, easier....
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malteser
#12
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17 May 2012 10:43:35(UTC)
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Alex, I've emailed you. Thanks very much.
Good points all. I was re-reading the latest copy of HIFICRITIC and saw that my colleague's results were very similar overall to the results Martin had when applying linear supplies on the NAS and switch.
I do have one question on Martin's article - Martin said that removing the switch entirely gave a substantial boost in performance. As far as I remember my networking, if the NAS were directly plugged into a networked product you'd need to use a crossover cable wouldn't you?
Regards,
Frank.
All opinions are my own and do not reflect the opinion of any organisations I work for, except where this is stated explicitly.
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Pete_w
#13
Posted :
17 May 2012 16:19:42(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: malteser
Martin said that removing the switch entirely gave a substantial boost in performance. As far as I remember my networking, if the NAS were directly plugged into a networked product you'd need to use a crossover cable wouldn't you?
Martin didn't quite say that - I've just fetched the magazine from the loo :-). He said that Linn are advocating an
extra
switch in the line, so no X-over cable required, just more lengths of cable. Actually, I lie. He didn't write "extra", he just said "recommend ... switch is placed in the cable close to the player to reshape pulses..." (I've deleted some extra words). So that could imply a second switch, or it could just imply the one switch with a long CAT5 cable out to the NAS.
If you look at Linn's website, they don't say that; but I can believe that info that they've given to Martin verbally could well be different to what they've published - websites often lag current thought in companies by months or years! Mind you, you could interpret what they publish in that way. Here's their "
entry level
" system, which relies on a multi-port router (such as a BT Home Hub). Their "
high-end
" system just adds a switch to unload the router, as you'd expect.
I do remember looking at their diagram and thinking that the extra router was superfluous, but in any real-world network you do need at least one switch. I've got two in mine, and I'm not exactly a geek! But I don't buy Linn's reported argument about pulse reshaping, unless it can be explained better from an engineering perspective. From where I'm sat, either the pulses will arrive sufficiently square that they can be decoded - and they will, if the cable is in spec - or they won't, in which case you'll be flooded with retransmissions.
So, personally, I'm with Martin (and William of Occam!) on this. If you don't need an extra switch, then don't add one!
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Shadders
#14
Posted :
17 May 2012 17:44:42(UTC)
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I always thought a Myth was a female Moth.
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malteser
#15
Posted :
18 May 2012 13:33:35(UTC)
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Hmm, my copy's at home...I could swear I read that removing the switch resulted in a 10% improvement...
Regards,
Frank.
All opinions are my own and do not reflect the opinion of any organisations I work for, except where this is stated explicitly.
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Geoff P
#16
Posted :
18 May 2012 21:29:44(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: malteser
Hmm, my copy's at home...I could swear I read that removing the switch resulted in a 10% improvement...
Interesting and I feel this is yet another example of the weird and wonderful unpredictability of small home networks.
I have a Linn KDS/1 and eventually bought into the Linn recommendation of a network switch but I didn't do this right away and ran for a while with the NAS and Linn cat 5'd to my decent quality D-Link router with all working well. TBH I also needed more ports which was the other motivation for getting a switch and in time I moved both the NAS and the KDS to the network switch ( a gigabit one). It all worked physically of course but I felt something very subtle and hard to pin down had gone missing in the music.
Interestingly I also started to experience occasional dropouts. Peculiar but that prompted me to put things back as they were on the router and that subtle thing that had gone missing in the audio was back, In line with what Frank feels Martin reported. Strange but true.
BTW Frank pretty much every piece of network gear made today is auto sensing and makes any 'crossover' connection itself so you just plug a piece of standard cable in and leave the equipment to take care of that.
The other point of interest to this thread is that Linn uses SMPS ( their 'Dynamik' ) in their range of streaming DACs including the KDS with what seem to be excellent audio performance and immunity to noise. They have clearly put effort into improving SMPS design.
Regards
Geoff
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Martin Colloms
#17
Posted :
19 May 2012 09:51:40(UTC)
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I have a Linn Radikal motor with outboard S/M supply
but
I run it off a separate spur and it has a custom high dynamic range mains filter, and this does make a difference to sound quality
I gave a good review to the Akurate DS with on board S/M , either because or in spite of S/M
but this unit also befitted from careful mains filtering and also custom RFI filtered interconnects.
Linn do make relatively quiet S/M supplies but the plug top types and the rest are built to a price and are significant broadband noise transmitters both up the mains lead and radiated
The cheaper Class D amplifiers compound their S/M supply noise with their audio modulated output noise.
How do you switch ten amps peak at 500kHz and not make a broadband racket?
Martin Colloms
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Matt
#18
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19 May 2012 12:11:26(UTC)
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Linn used to make a 'Brilliant' power supply that raised noise levels beyond the range of human hearing.
Not sure if they still use this type of power supply?
Edited by user
19 May 2012 12:19:46(UTC)
|
Reason: Not specified
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Martin Colloms
#19
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20 May 2012 16:41:21(UTC)
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Few S/M supplies make noise in the audio range
their noise is in the radio range and corrupts the sound of electronics through complex modulation processes.
Martin C
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malteser
#20
Posted :
21 May 2012 11:39:21(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Geoff P
BTW Frank pretty much every piece of network gear made today is auto sensing and makes any 'crossover' connection itself so you just plug a piece of standard cable in and leave the equipment to take care of that.
Ahaaaa! Thanks Geoff. I didn't realize that was the case.
Regards,
Frank.
All opinions are my own and do not reflect the opinion of any organisations I work for, except where this is stated explicitly.
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