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Togil Offline
#41 Posted : 18 April 2012 17:38:37(UTC)
Togil


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As an example, Geithain used extensive blind listening tests to determine if Icepower class D amps were any different to A/B amps in their new active models.

No significant difference was detected.
Hans
kengale Offline
#42 Posted : 18 April 2012 18:02:55(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: hifistan Go to Quoted Post



"These are what I understand (and I have been known to make errors) are the current thinking with regard to hearing . Firstly all of us have an individual and unique physical hearing system . No two head shapes , ear shapes and inner ear shapes are identical . Secondly how the sound we hear is routed and then differentiated by the brain is again unique for each individual . So when you say this sounds different to me you are completely correct it does . it is also therefore equally true that no one and I do mean no one can tell you what you hear only you can tell other people what you hear."

When I was doing my PhD research in the early 70s the distinction between retinal images and perceptions was well known. If we ask if two people "see" the same thing we must distinguish between whether we mean that the same pattern of photons form on their retina or that the brains of the two interpret them in the same way. In the first case they do "see" the same thing; in the second they do not. A whole chain of processes exist between the raw image and the perception. The same thing would seem to apply to hearing. The sound waves hitting the eardrum may be identical/very similar but they undergo extensive processing before we "hear" the sound.

In a totally different direction I wonder to what degree designers employ blind testing in developing their products. And at what stage do they use it? I actually knew a speaker maker who used no testing whatsoever; if it was right in theory it had to be right in practice. But that is another story entirely.


I can't speak for others but when I was designing active speakers we definitely did do blind testing. And by designing the test properly one can show that some "perceptions" are all in the imagination and some are real. And in general, amplifier design is so much an established art that any competent designer working in this field can produce an amplifier whose deviations from accuracy are so small that they are literally imperceptible. When designing active speakers it is easier than normal to carry out proper blind testing simply because the amplifiers themselves are completely invisible to the listener.

As you say, in general, when we say we "hear" something we actually mean we "think we can hear" something. And when we want to compare audio products it is self-evident that the actual identities of the compared items MUST be hidden from the listener, and also that listening levels MUST be standardised (Fletcher-Munson etc having shown that the perception of tonal balance depends critically on level). Otherwise we are just describing how the interactions of a host of inputs to the mental process, including price, appearance, manufacturer's name, claimed design techniques, pre-existing beliefs, knowledge of any modifications and the claimed benefits/demerits of those modifications, etc etc are processed with the actual stimulus to the ear to produce a "perception" of audio quality.

And this is just the minimum condition for a valid test - quite evidentally a single comparison could produce a perception of difference which is purely due to chance, especially when the listener already holds the belief that there will be a difference, and statistically valid repeat techniques will have to be used to see if it is genuine. In fact there are far better techniques which apply uniquely to amplifiers (both pre and power) where you amplify the error between input and output with the same electrical-to-acoustic gain as the original stimulus and show that the error is completely inaudible, regardless of its measured level.
Equally you can show that an amplifier's response to mechanical vibration is (or isn't) totally inaudible. With the particular amplifiers I carried out these tests on - a thing I was initially worried about due to the high vibrational levels with amplifiers actually mounted within speakers - I was able to show that this response was both measurably and audibly imperceptible. A thing I can confirm with my later work with electronic systems mounted directly on oil-rig drill-heads, high-speed gas pumps etc. If tests on things like anti-vibrational feet for HiFi amplifiers produce audible results on reviews then this is the stimulus for producing condemnation of the amplifier designer for his failure to have grasped the most basic requirements for an audio amplifier, not praise for the designer of the feet - especially when you read the advertising puff for these feet, with in virtually all cases a complete lack of grasp of even the most basic theory of mechanical design.

RK Offline
#43 Posted : 18 April 2012 23:58:11(UTC)
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While it would be difficult to deny the total lack of scientific basis for many of the isolation / damping products aimed at the audiophile market, I would have to say that some have found different results per the comment "I was able to show that this response was both measurably and audibly imperceptible."

For those who would like to hear for themselves, check out:
http://www.monoandstereo...honics-in-amplifier.html

With respect to the comment about amplifiers ... "error is completely inaudible, regardless of its measured level.", well there must be something very wrong with (that rather antiquated and super over simplistic) measurement technique.

While some sit around and debate about the existence of such phenomina like the existence of audible differences between otherwise compitent amplifiers, others try to understand the mechanisms involved so that they can "enhance" the performance of their product in order to give the listener satisfaction when listening to music.

The only way to gauge an amplifier's ability to do so is to try it out, preferably over a long period. Either the sound will get under your skin or you will get board and soon forget about listening to music. Industry pro's seem to posess the ability to do this more quickly than others but still if one compares two similar sounding products it may take some time to discover the true essence of each product.

Imagine if one was doing a wine tasting test - say three or four good but different styles of wine. Blind so you don't know which glass is where. After the first taste or two one might be able to readily identify one from the other. After a couple of quick A-B's, one may well become confused. Is this the way to test (and enjoy) wine. Of course not! So why try it with amplifiers? If you believe that all "competent" amplifiers sound the same then why even bother doing a test in the first place?

kengale Offline
#44 Posted : 19 April 2012 10:55:40(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: RK Go to Quoted Post
While it would be difficult to deny the total lack of scientific basis for many of the isolation / damping products aimed at the audiophile market, I would have to say that some have found different results per the comment "I was able to show that this response was both measurably and audibly imperceptible."


Presumably then their particular amplifiers WERE faulty in their design - but there's not much excuse for this
Quote:


For those who would like to hear for themselves, check out:
http://www.monoandstereo...honics-in-amplifier.html

With respect to the comment about amplifiers ... "error is completely inaudible, regardless of its measured level.", well there must be something very wrong with (that rather antiquated and super over simplistic) measurement technique.


The measurement techique was to listen to the error - what I thought you were advocating. What's antiquated about that?

Quote:


While some sit around and debate about the existence of such phenomina like the existence of audible differences between otherwise compitent amplifiers, others try to understand the mechanisms involved so that they can "enhance" the performance of their product in order to give the listener satisfaction when listening to music.

The only way to gauge an amplifier's ability to do so is to try it out, preferably over a long period. Either the sound will get under your skin or you will get board and soon forget about listening to music. Industry pro's seem to posess the ability to do this more quickly than others but still if one compares two similar sounding products it may take some time to discover the true essence of each product.

Imagine if one was doing a wine tasting test - say three or four good but different styles of wine. Blind so you don't know which glass is where. After the first taste or two one might be able to readily identify one from the other. After a couple of quick A-B's, one may well become confused. Is this the way to test (and enjoy) wine. Of course not! So why try it with amplifiers? If you believe that all "competent" amplifiers sound the same then why even bother doing a test in the first place?



Actually this is the way wine tasting is carried out - being quite a wine fan myself.

And of course you still have to do the amplifier tests to find out if they ARE competently designed - it's the ones that sound different that have the design errors, usually as a result of just using a recipe of trendy components, without any true understanding of their function in the circuit, stirred together without any skill.


bencat Offline
#45 Posted : 23 April 2012 10:36:22(UTC)
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Kengale - One of the points of my post was exactly what you confirmed if just by not seeing equipment and by outside peer pressure a listener can be influenced in what they think they hear (or as you say imagine they hear) then the same rules will apply to your blind listening tests.

No matter how they are regulated or structured the main problem with them is that they are tests and this automatcally has an influence on the person listening making them either nervous , over critical and any other states that tests induce in people. It is also if done using brief exerts of the same music not the way any normal listener ever listens to music. I would say the only way these tests could prove useful is using defined test tones with soemone who has good pitch perception to confirm that the tone being produced is accurate. Agian this has nothing to do with music so doe snot really help in telling anyone what this equipment really sounds like to them .

I do realise how hard this makes things from a scientific point of view but if you accept it as the reality as a listener it empowers you with a real truth . Listen to equipment decide if you like it and if it makes the sound you want to hear in your own room . If it does and you feel the price is fair then but it play your music and forget about anyhting else other than collecting more music. I know that many of us are not able to do this and wil always be looking for the next best sounding item but in truth it is proably not nessesary .
System Theta Data Basic II Transport , Perpetual Technologies PA-1 Upsampler, PA-3 Dac , Concordant Exhillirant Pre ,Krell KSA50 Power , Harbeth Compact II Monitors .
kengale Offline
#46 Posted : 23 April 2012 15:40:03(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: bencat Go to Quoted Post
Kengale - One of the points of my post was exactly what you confirmed if just by not seeing equipment and by outside peer pressure a listener can be influenced in what they think they hear (or as you say imagine they hear) then the same rules will apply to your blind listening tests.

No matter how they are regulated or structured the main problem with them is that they are tests and this automatcally has an influence on the person listening making them either nervous , over critical and any other states that tests induce in people. It is also if done using brief exerts of the same music not the way any normal listener ever listens to music. I would say the only way these tests could prove useful is using defined test tones with soemone who has good pitch perception to confirm that the tone being produced is accurate. Agian this has nothing to do with music so doe snot really help in telling anyone what this equipment really sounds like to them .

I do realise how hard this makes things from a scientific point of view but if you accept it as the reality as a listener it empowers you with a real truth . Listen to equipment decide if you like it and if it makes the sound you want to hear in your own room . If it does and you feel the price is fair then but it play your music and forget about anyhting else other than collecting more music. I know that many of us are not able to do this and wil always be looking for the next best sounding item but in truth it is proably not nessesary .



some of our testing was blind in a way that is not possible (or at least would be unethical) with medicine in that the subjects didn't even know that they were being tested.
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